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Famed prosecutor and mystery novelist Marcia Clark along with award-winning author and forensic science advocate Jan Burke join the party to discuss a death by llama, and a special visit from “special correspondent” and travel expert, Tanya Lee Musgrave.

Well, the first thing you need to get your head wrapped around is that there aren’t all these autopsies going on. Autopsies are expensive. Let me tell you, if you’re over 50 and there’s not blood spattered everywhere, nobody’s going to autopsy you.

JAN BURKE

The Dinner Party Show Podcast — Ep. 5
Marcia Clark & Jan Burke Interview Transcript

{This transcript is the Marcia Clark & Jan Burke interview portion of Episode 5}
{This transcript is provided as a courtesy and was transcribed as best as possible. Any errors or omissions in the transcript are unintentional. The recorded audio file of the podcast episode is considered the master of what was said.}

Eric Shaw Quinn: You are listening to The Dinner Party Show with Christopher Rice and Eric Shaw Quinn. The Dinner Party Show, where we ask the question, is soup really that amazing?

Christopher Rice: Laughing at ourselves with Christopher Rice and Eric Shaw Quinn on The Dinner Party Show.

Eric Shaw Quinn: And Marcia, Marcia, Marcia.

Christopher Rice: Marcia Clark is in the studio.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Yes.

Christopher Rice: Welcome, Marcia.

Marcia Clark: Hi, guys. Thank you so much for having me.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Tonight’s guests are Jan and Marcia, Marcia, Marcia.

Christopher Rice: We got this button. Yeah. Marcia Clark.

[fanfare and applause play]

Marcia Clark: Oh yeah. Oh, the crowd. I love it. Yes. I’m waving to the crowd. I’m doing the Queen thing.

Christopher Rice: Are you? You look amazing.

Marcia Clark: The Queen thing. Why, thank you.

Christopher Rice: We haven’t gotten video figured out yet, but we are filming tonight’s show for our archive and we’ll post clips, but I’ll describe. You’re in a beautiful silk shirt and a lovely leopard… Is that a leopard print?

Marcia Clark: It’s ocelot.

Christopher Rice: It’s ocelot.

Marcia Clark: Ocelot.

Christopher Rice: Okay.

Marcia Clark: Not real ocelot. I don’t do real.

Christopher Rice: Yeah, of course.

Marcia Clark: Right. Of course. Of course.

Christopher Rice: You hear that, animal people? She’s not wearing her real fur.

Marcia Clark: Yes. Don’t throw stuff on me.

Christopher Rice: Don’t start that. Yeah. Absolutely.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I’m sure we’ll do something that will upset you, but this isn’t it.

Christopher Rice: Yeah, absolutely. I’ll just tell people how we met. We met at Patricia Cornwell’s launch party for her last novel here in Los Angeles. You were the nicest person at the party and also the prettiest.

Marcia Clark: I thought you were both.

Christopher Rice: Oh, thank you.

Marcia Clark: I did. And I was like so jazzed.

Eric Shaw Quinn: No, it’s you. See how I’m the guest on the show?

Christopher Rice: I ran home and I told Eric… I went to the party and I was dying to meet Patricia because I’d been a huge fan of hers for years and years and years. We connected on Twitter and she had sent me some really nice emails and invited me to what was a very actually small, intimate party at Sunset Tower. I got to meet her, which was a thrill. But then I got to meet you, which was a real thrill because we worshiped you in our house. My mom just adored you. She thought you were such a strong, independent woman who stood up under an amazing amount of pressure.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Unbelievable.

Christopher Rice: She really really loved you. I got to run home and tell everybody that I had met Marcia Clark. I was like, yeah, yeah, Patricia Cornwell’s party was great. Blah, blah, blah. I met Marcia Clark!

Marcia Clark: It’s a mutual admiration. I loved you. I love your mom.

Christopher Rice: Thank you.

Marcia Clark: I mean, I was like, oh my God, what a perfect connect. It really made the whole night for me. It was so much fun. So much fun.

Christopher Rice: It was a lot of fun.

Marcia Clark: And there you were. It’s like, Chris Rice. Chris? Oh my God.

Christopher Rice: I was like Marcia, Marcia, Marcia.

Marcia Clark: It was wonderful. It was wonderful.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Totally, yeah. And then we started talking about, oh, got to get her to come on the show. Oh yeah. That would be great. Oh yeah, absolutely. We’ll have her on the show.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. Because you really were the most famous prosecutor in America as a result of that trial.

Eric Shaw Quinn: And one of America’s leading experts on cyber bullying, too, I would think. Boy, did you take it on the chin.

Christopher Rice: I mean, really. Imagine if there had been social media when that trial had happened.

Marcia Clark: Thank God for small favors, right?

Christopher Rice: Yeah.

Marcia Clark: If there’d been Facebook and Twitter back then.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Oh my God. The LA Times was enough.

Marcia Clark: It was. But you know what? I’ve got to tell you guys, the LA Times hated the DA’s office forever and ever. They were so happy to sock it to us whenever they had a chance anyway, and so in the course of that trial, boy, did they. It was ugly.

Christopher Rice: Really?

Marcia Clark: It was ugly. Yeah.

Eric Shaw Quinn: It was brutal.

Marcia Clark:  It was.

Eric Shaw Quinn: And then every media in the world, and that means I’m going to go… This is my big Marcia Clark question that I’ve been dying to ask. Should there be cameras in the courtroom?

Marcia Clark: It’s a really good question. It’s such a good question.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I hate it. But it seems like if anybody is the person to ask that question, it’s you. I think cameras changed that trial.

Marcia Clark: Absolutely. They change every trial. This is a is a knife’s edge question because on the one side I was very adamant about no cameras in the courtroom because lawyers strut for the cameras. Witnesses show up who really have nothing to say but who want time.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely.

Marcia Clark: Witnesses don’t come forward because they don’t want to be on camera. Jurors get all weird and twizzly. Judges misbehave as we’ve seen and get all crazy about their star turn. None of this serves justice. None of it.

Eric Shaw Quinn: And it’s not anybody’s business, but the people involved in the suit. I just think that we get the verdict and that’s enough.

Marcia Clark: There’s another side to it. When I got into this conversation with Fred Goldman on a radio show many years ago, I said, “I just think it’s subverts justice. I think there’s no good that comes of it.” He said, “But if there hadn’t been cameras in the courtroom no one would know what a travesty of justice this verdict is.”

Eric Shaw Quinn: No.

Christopher Rice: Right. That’s a very good point.

Marcia Clark: And that’s true.

Christopher Rice: Yeah.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Yeah. There were no cameras at Simi Valley.

Marcia Clark: There were none. Not only that… We all knew that was a travesty anyway, though.

Eric Shaw Quinn: We didn’t need cameras.

Marcia Clark: Because it was videotaped.

Eric Shaw Quinn: But just the same, we didn’t see—

Marcia Clark: But what about Robert Blake? Robert Blake was acquitted of the murder of his wife, but nobody really is up in arms or all upset about it because they don’t really know what the evidence was. But the evidence was so compelling. He went and tried to hire people to kill his wife all over Hollywood, all these stunt men. He knocks on the door, “Hi, would you kill my wife?” “No, I’ve got a bridge game. Sorry.” “Would you kill my wife?” “No, I got to go do my sock drawer.” Finally he goes, “Oh fuck it. I’ll do it myself.” You know what I mean? It was that clear. The evidence was that clear and they acquitted him. There’s no hue and cry about it because there were no cameras.

Eric Shaw Quinn: What about this Casey Anthony? She’s the latest.

Marcia Clark: Oh.

Eric Shaw Quinn: People literally competing. The part that bothers me is that it becomes entertainment.

Marcia Clark: Oh, yeah. Oh, big time.

Christopher Rice: Yeah, right.

Eric Shaw Quinn: That whole trial was about… I have no idea what the issues are in that particular trial. And it was televised.

Marcia Clark: Yes.

Eric Shaw Quinn: So it doesn’t help.

Marcia Clark: Yes. Yes. Absolutely it did. It’s the same thing. I do think that the cameras… Like we said, the cameras affect everything and it becomes entertainment. And then you have all the spinners. You have all the people out there.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Right. All the pundits and the Nancy Grace. Boy, if we want to do something about cyber bullying we can start with Nancy Grace.

Marcia Clark: Oh my God.

Christopher Rice: Honey. Tell you, honey.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Pounding people into the grave, that one.

Marcia Clark: Yeah.

Christopher Rice: We are live in the studio with Marcia Clark. We’re going to come back and talk about her amazingly well-written mystery novel. She’s got two out now. But first we have a word from another new sponsor.

[comedy sketch]

Christopher Rice: We’re back in the studio with Marcia Clark. We will not be talking anymore about that trial. We’ll be talking about your books. You have two novels in the Rachel Knight series out. They’re available for sale on our store page.

Marcia Clark: Yay.

Christopher Rice: I read the first one and I really loved it. I genuinely loved it. Did you have to overcome this belief that it was this ghost-written celebrity thing? Not that there’s anything against that, man who wrote two novels for Pamela Anderson.

Marcia Clark: No. Really?

Christopher Rice: Yeah. Eric Shaw Quinn was Pamela Anderson’s ghostwriter.

Marcia Clark: Oh my God.

Eric Shaw Quinn: This is what the voice of Pamela Anderson naturally sounds like. Who thought? Who knew? Who suspected?

Marcia Clark: No wonder she sounds so brilliant.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I ended up being the number one chick lit author…

Marcia Clark: No kidding.

Eric Shaw Quinn: …on Amazon in 2004, whenever I wrote that book. It was like, wow, I hadn’t planned on that in my career. Yeah. Anyway.

Christopher Rice: Anyway.

Marcia Clark: I think that’s great.

Eric Shaw Quinn: You did not have a ghostwriter. You actually got in there and got on the old Underwood and—

Marcia Clark: And did it and pounded it out.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Typed it out yourself.

Marcia Clark: I always wanted to be a writer when I was a kid. I loved it, but I didn’t have any confidence that I could ever make a living at it so I didn’t try. And then eventually all kinds of things happened in life, and I wound up writing scripts in Hollywood. And that gave me confidence to think, you know what, time to realize a childhood dream now or never. So I went after it. It took a while. I mean, there were several iterations of the book before I finally got something that anybody wanted to read or publish.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Courtroom lawyers are storytellers. That’s what they do for a living.

Christopher Rice: Right.

Marcia Clark: Especially criminal lawyers.

Eric Shaw Quinn: You have to tell the jury a story and get them to believe it. And the stakes are a lot higher than, God, I hope somebody buys the paperback rights to this.

Marcia Clark: I don’t know. Those are pretty high stakes, if you ask me.

Eric Shaw Quinn: For me, that’s all the stakes there are.

Marcia Clark: It’s groceries, kids.

Christopher Rice: Was it your childhood dream to have a recurring character, a detective or DA character like yourself? Or was it to just write?

Marcia Clark: I think it was just to write, but then again, it might have been to have a recurring character. Because I love Nancy Drew.

Christopher Rice: Right.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Oh, I love Nancy Drew.

Marcia Clark: I’m sorry. She’s 81 years old.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I read every one of Carolyn Keene’s books, whoever Carolyn Keene happened to be at the moment. Yeah. I love Nancy Drew.

Marcia Clark: Nancy Drew, she’s so intrepid. I have to say, it occurred to me somewhere in my reading history that there’s a formula to it that every time her dad went out of town a case fell in her lap.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Right?

Marcia Clark: Right? But nevertheless, I remain true to my love of Nancy Drew. I think I probably did want to write a recurring character, but I think what—

Christopher Rice: But wait a minute. That means her dad was behind them all, right?

Marcia Clark: Well, I thought so.

Christopher Rice: Right?

Eric Shaw Quinn: Her dad was a lawyer, so he factored in frequently.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Ex-clients and-

Marcia Clark: They are nefarious.

Eric Shaw Quinn: …people who were out to get him and people who he’d gotten settlements against, there was always some ax to grind with…

Marcia Clark: Yep.

Eric Shaw Quinn: What was his name? I can’t remember.

Christopher Rice: I’m out on the field on the Nancy Drew stuff. I was too busy fantasizing about the Hardy Boys.

Marcia Clark: The Hardy Boys. They were cool. I get it.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. They were more than cool. They were hot.

Marcia Clark: They were… See, back in the day, I wouldn’t have thought that, but now I look back and I think of course they were.

Christopher Rice: Yeah, of course.

Marcia Clark: They were majorly hot.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely.

Marcia Clark: Yeah. So I wound up with Rachel Knight. I think what really inspired me now to write a series was Armistead Maupin, who was one of my favorite writers.

Christopher Rice: Oh, wow. God, what a wonderful writer. Yeah.

Marcia Clark: Right? He’s a wonderful writer.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Storyteller.

Marcia Clark: The series of Tales of the City just was so entrancing to me. I felt so in love with all the characters. He has such a gift of really delivering these unique characters. You come back to them and it feels like a family. And that made me, I think, want to write recurring characters that are family you come back to and they develop and things happen and you experience life through them. I think that was probably the original, the more immediate.

Christopher Rice: And the first book that you wrote, it is very much about that. It is about the heroine taking up for a colleague who she believes is being wrongly accused of a pretty terrible crime of statutory rape. It had that feel. It’s very easy for people who don’t know that world to go wrong with that field, to just degenerate into TV cliche, excuse me. But it felt really authentic and really real. I just really enjoyed it.

Marcia Clark: I’m so glad. That was part of the whole reason for having a protagonist who is a female DA in Los Angeles. Of course they say write what you know, so that’s part of it, too.

Christopher Rice: Yeah.

Marcia Clark: Yeah, that helps. But the other part of it is, there’s a world that’s involved in being a prosecutor. It’s about a mission. It’s about a sense of a justice. It’s about delivering justice to people, about delivering closure and doing something good for the world. You’re really dedicated to it the way there’s like no other job I can think of other than other law enforcement that might be like that. I wanted to bring that world to the reader. It’s a world that’s very dedicated. There is that mission, but there’s also lots of camaraderie and there’s lots of laughter, because of course there has to be.

Christopher Rice: Right.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Right. Because it’s life.

Marcia Clark: That most people don’t know. Right? It’s life.

Eric Shaw Quinn: It’s not all serious.

Marcia Clark: But it’s also so it’s all serious grim. If you didn’t laugh you’d go crazy, right?

Eric Shaw Quinn: Right.

Marcia Clark: Which is why homicide detectives are some of the funniest people I’ve ever met. They’re hilarious. The sheriff’s homicide division, their motto, it’s up on the wall, says, “Our day begins when your day ends.” They’re sick like that.

Christopher Rice: That’s fantastic.

Marcia Clark: But nobody knows this. I wanted my people to be funny and give you that sense of fun along with the core mission justice. Of course, all the women have hot boyfriends because it’s my book.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Right.

Christopher Rice: I hear you, sister. I hear you. Speaking of fun, you’re going to be here with us for the rest of the evening. We’re going to bring our dear friend, Jan Burke, in in a little bit. But now I believe-

Eric Shaw Quinn: Jan and Marcia.

Christopher Rice: … our relationship expert, Jo-Nell Samms, is back for another installment of her homemade relationship advice. So let’s hear what she has to say.

[comedy sketch; “It’s Raining Men” by The Weather Girls plays]

Christopher Rice: The Weather Girls live in the studio.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Two times the fun.

Christopher Rice: Jan Burke and Marcia Clark are here singing It’s Raining Men.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Way less than two times the fun.

Marcia Clark: Hallelujah.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Way, way less.

Christopher Rice: We are joined in the studio by Jan Burke, my dear friend, the Edgar Award-winning author and forensic science advocate. Welcome, Jan.

Jan Burke: Thank you. Good to be here.

Marcia Clark: Yay, Jan. Wait, wait, wait.

Jan Burke: Oh, thank you.

Christopher Rice: Oh, the fanfare. I always forget the fanfare.

[fanfare and applause plays]

Marcia Clark: There we go. Jan, wave, wave, wave. There you go.

[cat meowing sound effect]

Christopher Rice: Who let the cat out?

Eric Shaw Quinn: I swear to God.

Christopher Rice: Who let the cat out?

Eric Shaw Quinn: Shea, put that cat away right now.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. Absolutely. We have a little bit of housekeeping to tend to with our two lovely guests here. We’re going to make them wait just 30 seconds. Subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, folks.

Eric Shaw Quinn: It will help us out. If you’ve already bought our books, and you can buy them as often as you want to, it would also help us if you—

Christopher Rice: Absolutely.

Eric Shaw Quinn: …if you go to iTunes and just click on the little apple on thedinnerpartyshow.com. It’ll take you to our iTunes page, and you can subscribe there.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. Like Facebook, the show is free. We want it to always be free. And even if you listen to the show on another platform, if you use the Android app or if you listen to us live using the streaming player, go to that iTunes page and hit subscribe, because those are the numbers that count. They will draw the attention of people who will allow us to keep bringing the show to you free of charge.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Those numbers count, too.

Christopher Rice: Those numbers.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I think all the numbers count.

Christopher Rice: They all count, but those numbers are particularly important, particularly important.

Eric Shaw Quinn: So that would be really helpful. Anyway, that’s our own sponsorship announcement tonight.

Christopher Rice: Okay. I’m telling my Oprah story. I threatened you all during the break with my Oprah story. I’ve been accused of telling this story before.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Again. So if you’ve heard this on a previous episode, it’s that story.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. Oprah does not talk to her guests during the commercial breaks, or at least she didn’t.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Misses all the fun.

Christopher Rice: Well, no, she wants the fun to happen on the show, and that’s why she will not speak to you when you’re in commercial because too much good energy and too many good stories get told during the break. However, there was one time where she broke her rule. I don’t know who the guest was, but the guest told an entertainment reporter who told me, and it was a very well-sourced story. The guest said, “I saw Barbra Streisand was on your show a few weeks ago.” And Oprah stopped flipping through her note cards, which is what she always did, and she looked up at the guest and said, “Do you know she painted my mic to match her dress?” Oprah went back to flipping her note cards. That’s the one time she broke her rule. She broke her rule.

Marcia Clark: Oh my God. And a true story, no less. Painted her mic.

Christopher Rice: Painted her mic pink, I believe, to match her pink dress.

Marcia Clark: Pink. That is lovely.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Barbra and the husband have bought a truck and they go riding around and dining out at truck stops. Barbra Streisand.

Jan Burke: I had heard this. I had heard that. Yeah.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I heard her doing this interview the other day.

Marcia Clark: Oh my God.

Jan Burke: We watch the same trashy shows, obviously, Eric.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Guilty pleasures.

Christopher Rice: I’ll say. My stars. Jan Burke, before we dive into our very special edition of The Dish, which is typically a gossip and entertainment headline roundup, and this week…

Eric Shaw Quinn: I found this very gossipy and entertaining.

Christopher Rice: …will be a death roundup. Maybe tell us a few things about The Crime Lab Project, which you started a few years back.

Jan Burke: Okay. Well, The Crime Lab Project basically tries to bridge that gap between what people think is going on from watching CSI and Bones and all of these other shows.

Eric Shaw Quinn: As if.

Jan Burke: And what the reality is. What I say to people is, the lab in CSI compares to the average crime lab the way the Jetsons’ house compares to your house. It’s this futuristic thing that really doesn’t exist. The reality…

Eric Shaw Quinn: Anywhere?

Jan Burke: Anywhere.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Wow.

Jan Burke: I know everyone wants there to be a fantasy lab. I’ve had people say this. I had a friend who said, “Oh, but the Las Vegas lab is like that.” I’m saying, “The show is shot in LA on a set.”

Christopher Rice: The show is shot in Sylmar, I believe, which is outside LA.

Jan Burke: The great thing was, the was the next week there was a story in the news about the Las Vegas lab being evicted from their temporary storage space that they were renting out.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Oh my God. So there is no Jeffersonian?

Jan Burke: No, no. no. I’m afraid holographs are not in use. And alas, these guys don’t always A) have a match in the database, and they don’t hang out in the jurisdiction for someone wearing sunglasses to come up and confront them.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. Also, here’s the part that really freaked me out. Again, a serious live cast of The Dinner Party Show. There is no federal standard for qualifications for a death investigator. Is that correct? It depends on what state you’re in. It could be somebody’s friend.

Jan Burke: Absolutely. No. In Colorado, there’s a guy who’s a horseshoer who’s the coroner.

Christopher Rice: So he got elected?

Jan Burke: The New Orleans coroner is actually…

Eric Shaw Quinn: Oh, dear God.

Jan Burke: Yeah, I know.

Christopher Rice: Oh God. Here we go.

Jan Burke: He’s actually an obstetrician.

Marcia Clark: That actually makes sense when you think about it.

Jan Burke: Yeah.

Marcia Clark: Alpha omega.

Jan Burke: The beginning… The alpha and omega. Exactly.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Brings you in and takes you out. It’s a full service operation. Yeah.

Jan Burke: That’s exactly right. Actually, he’s more qualified than most death investigators because in huge part of the country there’s no training required. It’s a state by state jurisdiction by jurisdiction thing. The terms don’t mean anything. Anyway. If you want to know more, just go to thecrimelabproject.com and click through and it’ll take you to all kinds of things.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Are you trying in an advocacy way to try and get the standards or to try and get funding? What is the project trying to—

Jan Burke: Well, we’ve tried a number of things, primarily initially we’re just trying to educate people, just try to make people aware of the problems. I think more and more people are starting to see. For example, there’s been a lot of publicity about rape kit backlogs. I used to say the word—

Eric Shaw Quinn: The Closer did a nice episode on that, a little more realistic perhaps.

Jan Burke: Right.

Christopher Rice: And Southland did as well.

Jan Burke: Right. I have to say, 10 years ago when we first started talking about all this stuff to people, the audience would just look at you like you’re crazy. They would just be in denial. I could see it. “No, no, no. You found a bad lab or two, and all the rest of them were fine.” But it’s not, it’s bad.

Christopher Rice: It was messing with juries, too, wasn’t it? Juries were coming to expect to be presented with the type of evidence they were seeing on an episode of CSI. So if they were like, if you don’t have a hologram of the fingerprint that tells me if he was a diabetic, you clearly didn’t do your job, Mr. Lawyer Person. It was like, what? This is a television show.

Jan Burke: I should say, first of all, if I can do this bad pun, the jury is still out on the jury effect.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Oh.

Christopher Rice: Oh.

[many comedic groans]

Marcia Clark: You know you can’t do that. No.

Jan Burke: No, it is, because there are studies that suggest juries are not generally that gullible. I mean, anybody can anecdotally find these cases where somebody wants stuff like that. But part of what’s happening is juries are saying to prosecutors, “Why don’t you have physical evidence in this case where it’s pretty clear there should have been some?”

Eric Shaw Quinn: Which is a reasonable expectation, whether you’ve got a Jetson-like studio to process the evidence or not, you should have some if you’re bringing people to trial.

Jan Burke: Right. In some ways, I think it’s been good.

Eric Shaw Quinn: So they’re more informed.

Jan Burke: Because the juries are starting to say, “Prove it.” The other thing is, though, sometimes they do. I do think there is an expectation that there always will be forensic evidence. It’ll always be useful. There’s especially this very weird prejudice about DNA. They think there’s always going to be DNA. Well, if a husband kills his wife, yeah, his DNA is going to be there. It’s his house. He’s been spreading it around there.

Eric Shaw Quinn: It’s very little evidence in that.

Jan Burke: Yeah. Yeah. It isn’t always useful.

Eric Shaw Quinn: That’s most likely to be the person who killed you.

Jan Burke: Right.

Christopher Rice: Right. Exactly.

Jan Burke: Yeah.

Christopher Rice: Well, we got a lot of questions on the Facebook page about DNA, and we have plenty of time to answer them during the rest of the show. I think we have a word from another new sponsor. And then we’ll be back with Marcia Clark and Jan Burke. Oh, and that Eric guy is still here, too.

[comedy sketch]

Christopher Rice: Welcome back to The Dinner Party show, which you never left because there’s only one show playing on our website, and it’s ours.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Thank goodness.

Christopher Rice: My cohost, Eric Shaw Quinn is here.

Eric Shaw Quinn: It would be so confusing if there’s more than one show playing.

Christopher Rice: Marcia Clark is still in the studio with us.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Jan and Marcia.

Marcia Clark: Here we are.

Christopher Rice: Jan Burke is here. Okay. Jan, we asked you to take over this segment of The Dish, which is usually gossip headlines. We want to hear death headlines from the world of crazy deaths.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Wacky dead people.

Christopher Rice: The Wacky Dead, coming this fall.

Eric Shaw Quinn: We’re just a million laughs here.

Jan Burke: I have to say, I feel for these people because some of them have led these wonderful lives, but they wrap up with something that—

Eric Shaw Quinn: Right? In a Dale Evans swimsuit. Yeah.

Jan Burke: Right.

Eric Shaw Quinn: It’s really an ugly moment. Like, oh God. Found hanging in his own closet after doing that thing that he does.

Christopher Rice: Speaking of things.

Jan Burke: Yes.

Christopher Rice: Our first item…

Jan Burke: Right. Woman dies after pet llama slips on wet grass and strikes her.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Wet grass can be so dangerous.

Marcia Clark: Yes.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Particularly if you have four cloven hoofs.

Jan Burke: Right. Well, llamas and wet grass clearly do not mix.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Bad combo.

Christopher Rice: I saw that PSA in school.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Yeah.

Christopher Rice: I did. Do not put your llama on wet grass.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Yeah. It can only lead to heartache.

Jan Burke: Right. Well, as this intrepid reporter says, “It’s a death you wouldn’t wish on anyone.” You wouldn’t be sitting around saying, may your llama slip on wet grass.

Christopher Rice: That is an ancient Aramaic curse. May your llama slip on wet grass.

Jan Burke: Yes. I especially appreciated about this story, which is basically that this woman comes out to see her llama. The llama gets very excited about seeing her. And the llama in its excitement it’s a little klutzy slips, crashes into mom of llama or whatever.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Mama llama.

Marcia Clark: Mama llama.

Jan Burke: Mama Llama bing bang, or something. But it hits its beloved owner and she hits her head on concrete and apparently also has a heart attack. I really think if her number wasn’t up, I don’t know whose is. I mean, when God has to go to the extreme of having your llama slip to knock you out of the universe, I mean—

Eric Shaw Quinn: And get your heart attack cranked up.

Jan Burke: This was my favorite line.

Marcia Clark: God jumped the shark.

Eric Shaw Quinn: This is the best part.

Christopher Rice: Or jumped the llama.

Jan Burke: My favorite line in the whole story is, “Authorities don’t believe Baby Doll…” This is the name of the llama, Baby Doll.”

Eric Shaw Quinn: My favorite part.

Jan Burke: “Authorities don’t believe Baby Doll acted maliciously.”

Marcia Clark: I do. I do, and I think we need to prove it.

Eric Shaw Quinn: So it was just death by llama and misadventure.

Jan Burke: They questioned Baby Doll extensively apparently. Baby Doll under the lights getting the third degree.

Christopher Rice: Oh wow. When It’s your time, it is your time.

Jan Burke: It is. It is.

Christopher Rice: It is your time. Okay.

Jan Burke: Oh, okay. So this next one is gross but true.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Oh, this one.

Christopher Rice: Gross but true with Jan Burke.

Jan Burke: West Palm Beach. Of course, Florida. This has got to be a vortex for this kind of thing.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Was the llama in Florida, too?

Jan Burke: No. No.

Eric Shaw Quinn: But the wet grass had been imported from Florida.

Jan Burke: No. A West Palm Beach man who collapsed after a cockroach eating contest last month.

Christopher Rice: Oh God. My mother just turned off the show.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I would’ve collapsed. I would’ve collapsed before.

Jan Burke: Choked to death on bug parts and his own vomit, the Broward County Medical examiner ruled Monday.

Marcia Clark: This is striking me as he had it coming.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Yes.

Marcia Clark: Right. I can’t do bugs.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Flirting with disaster at the very least.

Marcia Clark: Yes.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Yes. Jesus. God.

Jan Burke: And this poor guy. This is—

Eric Shaw Quinn: How drunk were these people?

Jan Burke: They were not allowed to have alcohol. In fact, the radio station—

Eric Shaw Quinn: Well, that’s probably why he got so sick.

Marcia Clark: Wait a minute! Wait a minute!

Christopher Rice: There were rules about the cockroach eating contest.

Jan Burke: There are rules. They actually eliminated… Two contestants were not allowed to participate, lucky guys, because they brought beer with them.

Christopher Rice: Well, or maybe the alcohol would’ve relaxed their throats and the bugs would’ve gone down better.

Eric Shaw Quinn: There’s a tip.

Marcia Clark: Better, yeah.

Jan Burke: Well, who’s to say?

Eric Shaw Quinn: Or they would’ve thrown them up more easily.

Marcia Clark: You say that now. Where were you?

Christopher Rice: I know.

Jan Burke: Some of the best aspects of this one are that he wasn’t doing this on his own behalf. He was trying to win an albino boa constrictor for a friend.

Christopher Rice: For a friend!

Marcia Clark: For a friend!

Jan Burke: I’m sorry. A python. A python. An albino python.

Eric Shaw Quinn: No good deed goes unpunished.

Jan Burke: Right. Right. See what happens? You’re trying to help out a pal. The guy who provided the bugs or station, this is another great quote.

Christopher Rice: Wait a minute, wait a minute. I got to stop you. The guy who provided the bugs, the cockroach wranglers, as we would call them in Hollywood.

Jan Burke: Right.

Christopher Rice: Oh my God.

Jan Burke: “They’re bred for exotic pet feed, and they’re completely safe,” he said.

Christopher Rice: I have to go to the line, too. The associate professor of bug studies at Montana State University said that swallowing a cockroach is like swallowing a fish hook. On that note, it’s time for another installment of our very special series, audio book bestsellers. Very appropriate, given that we have two other authors in the guest chairs today.

Eric Shaw Quinn: It’s all writers tonight.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. We’ll be back very shortly then, again, live with Marcia Clark and Jan Burke. And that Eric guy.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Jan and Marcia.

[comedy sketch]

Christopher Rice: Well, that was quite an audio book we had in there.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I think it was very bleak.

Christopher Rice: It was. Those Swedes. Edison Bolen on our Facebook page says, “The audio book narrator sounded like the love child of Arnold Schwarzenegger and the Swedish chef.” We will convey that to him.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Which given Arnold’s history, might actually be the case.

Christopher Rice: Yes. It’s time for dessert at The Dinner Party Show.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Ah, the tasty part.

Christopher Rice: Michael Minch would like to know who killed Laura Palmer. Is that a question anyone here is qualified to answer? No.

Eric Shaw Quinn: You.

Christopher Rice: I didn’t watch the whole series. That was a Twin Peaks thing.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I thought it was that guy, old mean Joe or whatever.

Christopher Rice: I want to hear what you say. Old mean Joe. Boxcar Bob.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Boxcar Bob.

Christopher Rice: We don’t know, Michael. We don’t know. There are a lot of murders we could solve, but that’s not unfortunately one of them.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Maybe somebody else out there knows. Do you know?

Jan Burke: No. I was just going to say, I did go as Laura Palmer in a Halloween costume one year when the show was on. It was just wrap myself in that plastic and painted my nails blue.

Eric Shaw Quinn: You actually would be a pretty good… Yeah.

Jan Burke: Yeah.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Yeah. I can totally see you as… Yeah. You’ve definitely got the look. Maybe one of the other listeners knows and they can post it on the page.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. We already had one correction from the audience tonight. Well, it was an addition, let’s say. Justin Simpson pointed out that it was actually Kathy Griffin who told the Oprah story about the microphone being painted by Barbra Streisand. Thank you, Justin Simpson.

Eric Shaw Quinn: For deepening that story and encouraging Christopher to tell it yet again.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. I don’t believe I’ve told it on the show before, but we’ll review our archive after the show.

Eric Shaw Quinn: How many people have heard that story?

Christopher Rice: This is a good question I thought for the entire crew. Susan Bates would like to know, “Is there such a thing as the perfect murder?” What would that even be?

Eric Shaw Quinn: Depends on who you got rid of.

Christopher Rice: What would that even be?

Marcia Clark: If there were, we wouldn’t know.

Christopher Rice: Right.

Eric Shaw Quinn: And this has been logic class with Marcia Clark.

Marcia Clark: The Logic Corner from an unexpected source.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely.

Eric Shaw Quinn: That’s a very good point, Marcia. Yeah. I guess it also depends on your definition of perfect. Just being rid of somebody. My favorite murder story is the guy who killed the chairman of his committee, his doctoral committee who wouldn’t give him his doctorate because he wanted to keep him prisoner running his office and doing all of his research for him. He beat him to death with a hammer. Every year when he comes up for parole he says he is not sorry and he’d do it again. He was being held in slavery. That was perfect for that guy. He didn’t contest it and he got caught, obviously, but it was still—

Marcia Clark: But it worked for him. It was his therapy.

Eric Shaw Quinn: So that’s a different idea of perfect.

Christopher Rice: If he was willing to do the time.

Marcia Clark: Like they say.

Christopher Rice:

Absolutely. Speaking of the courtroom, Samiko Saulson would like to know, “Marcia Clark, how do you feel about the television portrayals of prosecutors in the various programs like Law and Order? Do they measure up to real life experience?”

Eric Shaw Quinn: Good question.

Christopher Rice: “And is there anything particular you would want to show in your stories that haven’t been shown in those portrayals?”

Marcia Clark: Well, I think that actually prosecutors are doing a lot better nowadays than they used to in the Perry Mason days. Back in the Perry Mason days prosecutors were always nimrods.

Jan Burke: Starting with the name Hamburger.

Marcia Clark: Hamburger, right. Does it get any worse? Thank you, Jan. It’s like, okay, it’s a miracle any kid grow up wanting to be a prosecutor after that. Nowadays, it really is cool. Law and Order in particular, the original series, was right on the money. That really is very, very close to true and accurate. The one thing I want to show at TNT right now is developing one hour drama based on my series of books.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Excellent.

[fanfare and applause]

Marcia Clark: Yeah. Thank you. So if that goes to series I’ll actually get to show what I want to show, which is the fun. I was talking about that, the fun, the laughter, the comradery, the crazy of it. Prosecutors aren’t necessarily all that right angle law enforcement. In fact, I knew plenty of prosecutors who were… Anyway.

Christopher Rice: Oh no, keep going please.

Marcia Clark: I stop at that critical moment.

Christopher Rice: We’re only live.

Marcia Clark: Therefore. So, yeah, I’d like to show that other side where they are nuts and they’re wild and they’re crazy and they get high and they whatever. But they do a good job. It’s not like they’re falling down on the job. They’re just not all that straight laced. I’d like to show that side of it, wild and crazy side.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Have you seen this major crimes show that’s on with Mary McDonald now where they work very closely with the DA’s office to negotiate pleas rather than to have to go to court.

Marcia Clark:

Which is true. Absolutely. If we had to go to trial on every case that got filed, we would collapse. The whole system would collapse. 97% of the cases do get pled out. Yeah, they have to. They have to.

Eric Shaw Quinn:

That’s very realistic.

Christopher Rice: We have a question for Jan from John Madsen. He’d like to know, “Have you ever been squeamish towards blood or a dissected corpse? And if so, how did you eventually get over it if you ever did get over it?”

Jan Burke: Well, I have to say, I’ve had this one step removed thing. All my research has been very graphic PowerPoint shows. I have been out once to where a body had lain for a while and I’ve smelled that smell, which is really the key factor, I think, in putting people off. I have to admit, I don’t have a huge curiosity about autopsies. I know about them, I know what goes on in them, but I don’t have that curiosity to actually see one or whatever. It’s just not a need. I guess some part of me still has this thing of, it’s a human being and a little bit of dignity here. I feel this way about a lot of things with the research. I don’t want to keep a detective…I don’t want to tie up his time when he could be solving a murder. I try to be prepared when I talk to him, those kinds of things.

Christopher Rice: How many murders are solved based primarily or in a major sense on something discovered during an autopsy? I ask that rhetorically, because that’s a convention of the TV show. The autopsy needs to happen in the first or second act, and we find that the pivotal scratch mark or bone dent that sends us off in the direction we need to be in for an hour. But how often does an autopsy turn up something that’s crucial to a conviction?

Jan Burke: Well, the first thing you need to get your head wrapped around is that there aren’t all these autopsies going on. Autopsies are expensive. Let me tell you, if you’re over 50 and there’s not blood spattered everywhere, nobody’s going to autopsy you.

Eric Shaw Quinn: That’s kind of a relief.

Jan Burke: It’s a very low rate. It’s actually dangerously low rate of autopsy. They’re only going to do one if they really feel there’s something that’s going to be discovered by doing that. Sometimes all that’s done is a tox screen to tell whether somebody was under the influence of something. There’s got to be some compelling reason for them to go ahead and do that.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely.

Marcia Clark: And bust you after death for being high.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Do your worst.

Marcia Clark: Got to get those stats on.

Christopher Rice: And now it’s time for a special little installment for a series we call Pedestrian of the Week. And then we’ll be back with more questions from Facebook with Marcia and Jan.

[comedy bit; show ID]

Eric Shaw Quinn: Oops.

Christopher Rice: I wonder how many people get that show ID. It’s a specialized audience that knows that’s a take on some language you hear before an adult piece of entertainment. Anyway, I’m blushing. It’s the dessert portion of The Dinner Party Show. Marcia Clark and Jan Burke are still in the studio with us.

Eric Shaw Quinn:

Are looking at Christopher with grins on their faces.

Christopher Rice: Yeah, they are.

Marcia Clark: Well, somehow we all knew. It was like, that was more funny.

Eric Shaw Quinn: It’s like they all amazingly knew what that meant.

Marcia Clark: Oh yeah.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I think everybody gets that joke.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. Well, I was looking over a lot of the questions that have been posted on the Facebook page, and the common theme is really the writing angle. What got you interested in this, Jan? I think obviously, for you, Marcia, this was a career. You were actually out there doing the real thing, whereas a lot of us we just fantasize about doing that. But what got you—

Eric Shaw Quinn: Which is so much easier.

Christopher Rice: It was a lot easier.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Law school being such a bore.

Christopher Rice: I don’t have to leave the house at all. What got you interested in forensics, Jan?

Jan Burke: Well, I think probably because as a kid, until I realized that I’d have to pay more attention in math class, I loved science.

Eric Shaw Quinn: That was the end of so many dreams, wasn’t it? Math class.

Jan Burke: It really was.

Marcia Clark: Math took me to law school.

Jan Burke: Yeah. Keep up with the homework or guess what happens. That took me a while to figure out the relationship between doing the work and getting a good grade. But yeah, so I love science, but I didn’t have the grades to go into chemistry classes and all of that. I’d always wanted to write, that’s something I’d wanted to do since I was seven. But when I started looking for my first story to write something that had a scientific aspect to it appealed to me in terms of clue building. It just seemed to me that the scientific world was a great one for that kind of thing, of evidence and reasoning back into what happened here. So yeah, it was a natural thing.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I guess the scientific method is basically what investigators would use.

Jan Burke: Right.

Christopher Rice: We are getting a shout out from one of our listeners, Jeffrey Swisher, who by the way proposed marriage to you earlier and made a comment about your shoes.

Eric Shaw Quinn: He just wants me to decorate his house for Christmas.

Christopher Rice: Apparently he’s got a big house. He wants to remind us…

Eric Shaw Quinn: He wants to decorate.

Christopher Rice: Marcia, I don’t know if you heard us at the top of the show. We were talking about this terrible case of this radio prank call to one of the nurses at the hospital. We wanted to ask you about the legality of that, the legality of calling someone on the phone without their knowledge that they’re being recorded for broadcast, and then broadcasting something that humiliates them in such a way. How is this legal? How are they getting away with it?

Marcia Clark: I can’t say that it’s really a crime necessarily. In California, for example, it would be a crime to record someone without their knowledge. If you call somebody and you record them, unless certain exceptions apply, that’s a crime and it’s a violation of their right to privacy, et cetera, et cetera. You can be prosecuted for that. But as I understand it, the person who made the call made it from Australia.

Christopher Rice: Right.

Marcia Clark: Correct?

Christopher Rice: Yes.

Marcia Clark: So now you have international law involved. So which law applies, Australia’s or England, part the UK? So you got that wrinkle. And then you also have the part, I don’t know what’s against the law in Australia and the UK in terms of recording someone and broadcasting their response. That comes into play.

Eric Shaw Quinn: But prank calls on the radio are already illegal in California?

Marcia Clark: Prank calls? No, I mean, yes and no.

Eric Shaw Quinn: If I call somebody on the radio and record them, they don’t know that they’re being recorded if I’m playing it.

Marcia Clark: That’s not legal.

Christopher Rice: Wow.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Wow. So we can already go after all those bullies.

Marcia Clark: Something you’d like to tell us?

Eric Shaw Quinn: No, no.

Marcia Clark: Anything you have right to remain silent.

Eric Shaw Quinn: That story just really got me going. I have never thought that was funny. I think it may be the earliest, most prehistoric form of cyber bullying. I’ve never thought those radio prank calls were funny.

Marcia Clark: Neither did I.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I think they’re just mean.

Marcia Clark: They are mean. In fact, the one radio example that I loved doing that was Phil… Who’s the guy who did the voices? He was on KFI when I was doing KFI.

Christopher Rice: Was this here in Los Angeles?

Marcia Clark: Yes.

Christopher Rice: Oh, I don’t know.

Marcia Clark: Phil… Darn it. And what he’d do is he’d imitate both sides. He would make the call and then he was the person being called.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Oh, well, that’s all right then.

Marcia Clark: And it was funny people on the other side, and that was great.

Christopher Rice: Yeah. That’s funny.

Marcia Clark: That’s fantastic.

Christopher Rice: Yeah.

Marcia Clark: That was funny. But real prank calls, I don’t get the humor either. I don’t know.

Christopher Rice: Well, there was a group of guys, or maybe there were two guys called the Jerky Boys. I’m sorry, that was their name. They would put out these CDs and they would prank call places of business.

Eric Shaw Quinn: I’m sorry that was their name, too.

Christopher Rice: The joke was always that the person on the other end would be like, “Who the F are you? You complete idiot.” And that was what you’d laugh at. You’d laugh at them acting like complete idiots, but the objective of these people was to be put through, it was to cause a security breach for the royal family. I don’t care what they say, but that’s got to be it, right?

Eric Shaw Quinn: And they recorded it, so when they did create the security breach they were expecting to be hung up on, they chose to air the spot, which was airing the security breach rather than reporting it.

Christopher Rice: You know what it made me think of? There wasn’t a similar level of that where a woman didn’t apparently lose her life over it, it was the journalist in Wisconsin who pretended to be one of the Koch brothers and called Governor Scott Walker’s office and was put through.

Eric Shaw Quinn: That may be my exception.

Christopher Rice: And recorded the conversation.

Eric Shaw Quinn: That may be the exception.

Christopher Rice: And broadcast the conversation. And there was language in it. The professional consequences for whoever put that call through, I imagine, were far more immediate and severe given the political climate at the time than probably what this nurse was going to undergo from the hospital. The hospital in this case is claiming they supported the nurse the whole time, that she was not going to be subjected to any… Of course they’re saying that now, but who knows what the tone was before.

Eric Shaw Quinn: But that still isn’t the thing that she was being subjected to, which was something that somebody who was a nurse would not have signed on for, which was international scrutiny. That’s not a public position.

Christopher Rice: Right.

Marcia Clark: That’s right. That’s exactly right.

Eric Shaw Quinn: She was working as a nurse at a hospital. She didn’t sign up for that sort of thing.

Marcia Clark: It’s not fair. There’s an unfairness.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Scott Walker ran for office and whatever happens, happens. He gets to be governor of Wisconsin. So boohoo.

Christopher Rice: That’s a good point.

Marcia Clark: Yeah.

Eric Shaw Quinn: But she went to nursing school.

Christopher Rice: Yeah. The other side of this, too, that’s amazing to me is Beyonce and Jay-Z are able to shut down an entire floor of a New York City hospital so that she can have her baby. And they do it with such a level of secrecy that some people are speculating she didn’t actually have a baby, that it was a coverup. But the royal family is in this hospital and everybody knows where they are?

Eric Shaw Quinn: I think part of the reason that this is so seat of the pants is… I think I’ve understood this, I may be completely wrong, so our international listeners can correct me. I think that medical treatment for the royals is typically provided at Buckingham Palace. The reason that she’s in the hospital is because her symptoms were so extreme that it required hospitalization.

Christopher Rice: I see.

Eric Shaw Quinn: But typically, they are not in the regular main with medical treatment. I think that may be part of the reason that they didn’t seem to have a policy in place for if the Queen calls ask her to say the password or something like that, so that there would’ve been a security protocol in place to prevent this from happening in the first place.

Christopher Rice: Absolutely.

Eric Shaw Quinn: That’s a lot of speculation, Eric.

Christopher Rice: That’s a lot of speculation.

Marcia Clark: Yeah, but it kind of fits. I think it fits. They’re just not prepared.

Eric Shaw Quinn: That’s my inference, but honestly they haven’t said specifically, but I have that sense.

Christopher Rice: Well, before we say goodbye to you both, what are you working on now? You have the third book in the Rachel Knight series coming out soon, Marcia.

Eric Shaw Quinn: And the TV show.

Christopher Rice: And the TV show.

Marcia Clark: Well, hopefully the TV show. We’re in development.

Christopher Rice: Ah, TV.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Ah, development. Ugh.

Marcia Clark: Writing a pilot right now. Yeah, development hell. Exactly. And the third book, Killer Ambition, comes out in June. I’m writing a short story that’s going to come out in March.

Christopher Rice: Great.

Eric Shaw Quinn: Excellent. Well, you’ll have to come back and talk with us when the time comes.

Christopher Rice: Your most recent book is for sale in our store at thedinnerpartyshow.com. Jan, what are you working on?

Jan Burke: I’m working on a novel, working title is The Ride. Who knows? It’ll be changed by someone in marketing who has some idea how to sell a book. I think 2014. I’ll give the pub date when they really give me the pub date.

Christopher Rice: Any hints?

Jan Burke: Got a couple short stories coming out in the meantime. It’s a standalone.

Christopher Rice: Oh, cool.

Jan Burke: It totally evades the elevator pitch, but essentially the thing that inspired me to tell the story was I had a cousin who told me that he decided to share a ride with four complete strangers from the Houston Airport up to Kansas City when a storm canceled their flight. Being in this line of work, all I can think about is how horribly wrong..

Christopher Rice: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Marcia Clark: That is… oh my God.

Jan Burke: … and it goes from there.

Christopher Rice: Excellent. Thank you all so much for being here. We had so much fun.

Jan Burke: Thank you. This is so much fun.

Christopher Rice: We’re going to make you hang out in the waiting room so we can get a picture with you ladies, which we will post on our social media pages afterwards. Marcia Clark and Jan Burke.

Jan Burke: Thank you.

Marcia Clark: Thank you guys. Christopher Rice: And now it’s time for another installment…

Eric Shaw Quinn: My new favorites, Jana and Marcia.

Christopher Rice: … of Best Served Warm.